dawn.p…@
Oct 14, 2023, 1:49:31 PM
Hi Neighbors,
You may have noticed that there is a major event (wedding) set up in the yard of the STR on the corner of Pinecrest and County Park Road. The owners told me that it is a family event and that “they have a permit from the Fire Department.” There are two things that really bother me about this situation:
1. The dishonesty of the owners stating that they live in that house when we all know it is rented as an STR almost weekly. The owners live in Idyllwild in another house. I’m told that they own several STRs.
2. The porta potties. So they have bathrooms but apparently not enough for the size of the party they’re going to have this afternoon.
So, they may indeed be in compliance with County rules. I will do the research to determine if they’re registered as an STR and let you know. If they are in compliance, then there’s not a darned thing that we can do to prevent this property from being used for large events. If they are out of compliance, I’ll do my best to share what recourse we have.
In the meantime, I’ve blocked the front of my house from parking. You may want to do the same.
We have a well-managed STR on County Park Road and that’s perfectly fine. I’m not anti-STR. My issue is with a poorly managed STR and dishonest owners.
There – I got that off my chest. If the owners are part of the neighborhood watch than they are hearing this for a second time. I already expressed my concerns with them face-to-face this morning.
Dawn
John Jacobs
Oct 14, 2023, 2:29:40 PM
The address of this house is 54050 Pine Crest.
According to this listing of permitted STR’s, this house is currently permitted to operate as an STR. This house has had strong use as an STR for numerous years- there have been regular, though occasional, instances of problems related to numbers of visitors, parking, and noise- as a result, the owners have not developed particularly good relations with the surrounding neighbors.
It does appear that it is the owners that are conducting this event, so the regulations that would normally apply to STR use probably don’t apply. However, the normal regulations related to noise and parking are still quite relevant. Here is a link to the Riverside County Noise Ordinance 847– here is a pertinent excerpt (Section 6 c & d):
c. Audio Equipment. No person shall operate any audio equipment, whether portable or not, between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. such that the equipment is audible to the human ear inside an inhabited dwelling other than a dwelling in which the equipment may be located. No person shall operate any audio equipment, whether portable or not, at any other time such that the equipment is audible to the human ear at a distance greater than one hundred (100) feet from the equipment.
d. Sound Amplifying Equipment and Live Music. No person shall install, use or operate sound amplifying equipment, or perform, or allow to be performed, live music unless such activities comply with the following requirements. To the extent that these requirements conflict with any conditions of approval attached to an underlying land use permit, these requirements shall control.
1. Sound amplifying equipment or live music is prohibited between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m.
2. Sound emanating from sound amplifying equipment or live music at any other time shall not be audible to the human ear at a distance greater than two hundred (200) feet from the equipment or music.
Any kind of problems related to this event (or any other similar issue) can be reported to the Riverside County Sheriff’s non-emergency phone:
951.776.1099
Select Option 5 to go directly to a dispatcher
_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org
kathystyles01
Oct 14, 2023, 2:32:04 PM
HI Dawn,
Call Code Enforcement (800-228-5150) to confirm they are legit (that’s the # that’s required to be posted on any STR). I’m thinking with all the new restrictions in place for STRs, this type of “eventing” is not allowed.
Thanks,
Kathy
dawn.p…@
Oct 14, 2023, 2:47:19 PM
Hi again,
So I did some research and this house at 54050 Pinecrest is listed on VRBO and is registered with County as a short term rental (STR) – Riverside County TOT #71-226.
If you select the link above, you’ll note that events and parties are strictly prohibited. I believe that’s a requirement of the County’s STR ordinance.
Interestingly, there are permits issued by the Fire department for small and for large events although I see no definition nor explanation about why the permit is required and what the Fire department assesses before issuing such a permit. I will say that I’ve been told that this property has been abated for the first time in a years so perhaps that was a requirement. And that’a plus! Also, there’s a fee so it is a revenue generator for the Fire Department. Here’s a link to the Fire Department’s permit page.
https://idyllwildfire.com/forms-permits-plans-mous.html
The Riverside County Short Term Rental Hotline is (951) 955-2004. I called but there is only an answering service on weekends and my intention is NOT to shut this party down but to prevent the property from being used for large events in the future.
Some of you know that there have been issues with this STR over the years including open fires on the deck and the chimney catching on fire. There have been excessive numbers of cars and excessively loud renters. So this is not the first time that the owners have been told of our concerns. I just don’t get the impression that they care about our neighborhood.
So, again, I want to restate that I’m not anti-STR. I’m anti huge party in an an STR that requires porta parties! I’m also insulted by the pure dishonesty of the owners – so disrespectful. Although to be completely honest, I have learned that they notified the immediate neighbors about 6 months ago. I won’t speak for the neighbors but I don’t think that this was a discussion. I think it was simply to warn them about the party.
So, I’ll follow up. I just don’t know how an STR that can’t have parties and large events can do so just because the owners are using the property. This seems like a loophole that could lead to issues in the future.
I’ll let you know if I’m able to make any progress. But it appears that there’s very little enforcement of the STR ordinances. We are subject the professionalism and courtesy of the respective owners.
Dawn
kathystyles01
Oct 14, 2023, 3:40:44 PM
Thanks for the additional info. Leave a message complaint if possible on that line (I’d do it myself if I were in town and experiencing this 1st hand). The regs have stipulation that legitimate complaints will result in a fine, and I believe 3 complaints in a 12-month period will result in a permit being revoked. I’ve short-term rented my place for years and this kind of issue with a host really p#*$&$-es me off!
Thanks for your efforts,
Kathy
John Jacobs
Oct 14, 2023, 4:19:21 PM
to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com
Again: While this house is a registered STR, this event is being hosted by the owners- it is a wedding &/or reception for a family member of the property owners, who are present themselves. Therefore, the new Riverside County STR ordinance 927 (and its related regulations) are very unlikely to be applicable. Registering any kind of complaint for those reasons is probably pointless.
However, normal noise and parking regulations do have applicability. If noise levels violate Riverside County Ordinance 847, then contact the Sheriff’s non-emergency line at:
951.776.1099
Select Option 5 to go directly to a dispatcher
This excerpt is especially relevant:
6 d. Sound Amplifying Equipment and Live Music. No person shall install, use or operate sound amplifying equipment, or perform, or allow to be performed, live music unless such activities comply with the following requirements. To the extent that these requirements conflict with any conditions of approval attached to an underlying land use permit, these requirements shall control.
1. Sound amplifying equipment or live music is prohibited between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m.
2. Sound emanating from sound amplifying equipment or live music at any other time shall not be audible to the human ear at a distance greater than two hundred (200) feet from the equipment or music.
There are currently many cars parked down along Riverside County Playground Road, and down on (lower) Lower Pine Crest. Guests are apparently parking somewhere on Pine Crest up towards Forest Lumber. If you object to this, you will likely need to ask these people to move their vehicles. (I’m uncertain if there is a ordinance that restricts parking, although if the car is actually blocking traffic, it would likely be in violation of some regulation, I’m sure.)
_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org
John Jacobs
Oct 15, 2023, 11:06:50 AM
to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com
As a resident within 200′ of this home and the event, this is my perspective on last night’s wedding at 54050 Pine Crest.
There were quite a few cars along Riv Co Play Rd, and down on (lower) Lower Pine Crest. However, in the immediate vicinity of the homes in my area, there really weren’t any at all. There was some music that was audible around 5-7 pm, but it was really quite low, and not noticeable in my house. My other nearby neighbors stated the same thing- that parking and noise really wasn’t an issue. There were about 75 persons present- overall, it was a pretty low-impact event.
The wedding/reception was for the daughter of the owners of this property. Any kind of STR regulations that are currently in place did not apply. It is still not clear what the ‘permit’ was for- it’s possible it was related to the commercial BBQ service that was providing food. The owners had a few positive dialogues with next door residents afterward (including bringing flowers to one of the neighbors).
While it was a relatively low-impact event, it is understandable that residents in the vicinity would be concerned about what appeared to be taking place there yesterday morning/afternoon- this house has been an STR for several years now, and while most of the guests have been relatively low profile, there has definitely been a regular, occasional pattern of problem guests. Incidents have included loud partying on the deck, music, parking, open fires, intrusion into neighboring properties, and other such issues. Since residents in the area only know this house as an STR, it’s not surprising to interpret what was going on there was (yet another) STR abuse. Relationship building and communication on the part of STR owners can go a long way towards mitigating the frictions that develop related to STR’s.
Though it was not applicable to this event, the status of Riverside County Ordinance 927.2:
The Ordinance has gone through many revisions over the last year, and most recently, the Planning Commission approved the current version, and passed it to the Supervisors. They are currently considering it, and are scheduled to meet on November 7- this may result in finalizing it, revising it, or sending it back for more work. Because it is still in flux, many of the details of the regulation aren’t clear. Once it is effectively finalized, resources related to STR’s will be posted on the PineCrestWatch website.
_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org
divineintegrationqhht
Oct 15, 2023, 12:36:33 PM
I walked by this event after dark, and it seemed very respectful, and it’s sweet to see a family wedding in the neighborhood.
dawn.p…@
Oct 15, 2023, 1:05:15 PM
to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com
Appreciate all the input and I agree that it wasn’t loud. Also, it is possible our neighborhood is zoned for events. I’ll find out more and report back.
I’m my mind, this is a slippery slope. The owner can host large events as long as they’re not renting it as an overnight STR stay? But if it is rented as an STR, the rules for limited capacity and no parties applies? (Probably)
I sense that this could lead to renting homes for events. It’s really not about this one particular property. It’s the “loophole” that seems odd to me.
And, if the owner had been honest about their supposed residency at this location and had communicated in advance beyond their immediate next door neighbors, it would have mitigated my reaction to the porta potties and I wouldn’t have been such a party pooper.
I will follow up after I talk with the County and determine the zoning, etc.
Dawn Papaila
John Jacobs
Oct 15, 2023, 2:11:52 PM
to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com
This document specifies needs for event permits in Riverside County:
Pertinent sections to this event:
17.256.020 D
17.256.040 A 6
There are other details here that could be relevant to potential future events in this area.
This home (and others along this section of Pine Crest) are zoned as R3. This zoning is primarily residential, with potential for (very) limited non-residential use. This document contains specifics:
‘Renting a home for an event’ would be very difficult to do, if the event was a single event, and such a commercial effort would be subject to zoning limitations. That would be a lot of trouble to go to for such an event- it doesn’t seem likely, and has never been an issue (to my knowledge) in this neighborhood.
Renting an STR will have very strict limitations on the size of the group that uses the home- Ordinance 927.2 is quite clear about this.
Agreed- better communication with the broader neighborhood would have been helpful. Unfortunately, the owners have not participated in our neighborhood watch program.
_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
dawn.p…@
Oct 17, 2023, 11:51:11 AM
Update on this thread:
First, thank you John for all your research. I called Riverside County Short Term Rental Hotline at (951) 955-2004. They said that a permit would be required but they also understood my concern and are going to have someone from their team call me back. My intention is to just get clarity on this in advance of the upcoming hearing. I see this as a “slippery slope” in terms of using an STR (and we all know this is a full time STR) for owner-orchestrated events that exceed the rules required for the STR.
I’m pretty sure that there’s nothing that will result of this effort. They’re probably within their rights. But I’m convinced that someone wouldn’t create a service similar to VRBO or AB&B that allows owners to rent their homes to host parties. I’m just trying to nip that in the bud.
I’m already being bullied on FB both publicly and privately. And that just motivates me to stay in the fight. 😎
Dawn Papaila
dawn.p…@
Oct 17, 2023, 11:52:30 AM
Ugh…typos…I’m NOT convinced that someone who is needing income wouldn’t try to create this type of “party at my house” service.
kellyvisel
Oct 17, 2023, 12:14:51 PM
Hi Dawn,
I’ve mostly just sat back on this and listened, because raising concerns is fine. However, as John made clear, these were owners using their own property respectfully and with little impact to the direct neighbors.
Additionally, you closed comments on your Facebook posts. So how is anyone “bullying” you? You created posts meant to incite heated commentary, calling people out pretty much by name, and then turned off the community’s ability to respond. Essentially, you started a fight and then refused to stay for it.
Now you’re inventing a problem where there is none. Of all the problems we face in our neighborhood, the occasional owner using their own property shouldn’t be this big of a deal.
You should look up “slippery slope,” which is considered an argument fallacy. It’s a style of argument that shows you don’t have enough evidence to prove something negative is headed our way.
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize.
dawn.p…@
Oct 17, 2023, 12:19:58 PM
Wow. You’re really angry. Let me address your points in-line below.
On Oct 17, 2023, at 12:14 PM, Kelly Visel wrote:
Hi Dawn,
I’ve mostly just sat back on this and listened, because raising concerns is fine. However, as John made clear, these were owners using their own property respectfully and with little impact to the direct neighbors.
I did nothing to shut down the event. I called today to inquire about the rules for how a full-time STR is used.
Additionally, you closed comments on your Facebook posts. So how is anyone “bullying” you? You created posts meant to incite heated commentary, calling people out pretty much by name, and then turned off the community’s ability to respond. Essentially, you started a fight and then refused to stay for it.
I closed down comments on the second post 24 hours later because of the backlash. I’m getting private messages. I didn’t call anyone out by name. I didn’t include the address. I didn’t show a photo of the house. I don’t know what you’re referencing.
Now you’re inventing a problem where there is none. Of all the problems we face in our neighborhood, the occasional owner using their own property shouldn’t be this big of a deal.
I’ve tried to be clear that my concern is if STRs (in general) can be used for parties that are so large that they require Porta potties. I said that the owners were likely in compliance.
You should look up “slippery slope,” which is considered an argument fallacy. It’s a style of argument that shows you don’t have enough evidence to prove something negative is headed our way.
You’re right. I don’t have enough evidence. I’ve fully admitted that there wasn’t any issues and that they’re probably in compliance.
kellyvisel
Oct 17, 2023, 12:42:47 PM
I’m not angry, I’m just clear and to the point. Which is this, you started a fight and don’t like the response. There isn’t an STR issue, which John told you two days ago. Call whoever you want, I don’t care, but I’m not going to pretend like what you did was cool.
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize.