Idy County Park- Meadow BBQ's - Pine Crest - Riverside County Playground Rd

John Jacobs

Nov 12, 2019, 2:03:26 PMto Pine Crest Watch

I noticed new fire/cooking stands have been installed in the meadow area of the Park:

There are three of them (two shown here) that I noticed- they are in remarkably close proximity to a very large expanse of dry, extremely flammable grass, with little or no clearance of duff around them.
Anthony, can you please comment on how this area is going to be used, and the rationale for the installation of fire/cooking stands in such a questionable area? Given the extreme fire risk that exists in the area, and recent observations from at least one local resident of campfires in the Park in spite of fire restrictions, this project seems quite illogical.

_________________________________________Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch888.522.9001Idyllwild, California 92549

Miller, Anthony

Nov 16, 2019, 9:03:39 AMto Pine Crest Watch

Good morning

John,
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner I have been out with personal issues dealing with a family medical issue as well as having vehicles broken into this past week (Report filed with Riverside Sheriffs) so it’s been hectic but am glad to say I’m back and everyone is healthy again. Eager to continue moving forward with our improvements.
I do appreciate you pointing out the clearances we initially put down- I agree they need to be larger and I discussed that first thing this morning with staff. They are part of a much larger project with the trail around the meadow that area should be kept mowed and clear to both protect the meadow as well as giving additional clearance up to our fence line and neighbors. If you would like to take a walk with me I am more than happy to share and hear your input. Give me a call 951-529-5620 to arrange ahead of time so I can put it down on my calendar and be available to discuss.
I anticipate fire restrictions to continue for the foreseeable future I am encouraged to see a chance of rain/snow but we are not out of the woods yet in getting out of this dry/windy pattern so please let us know (myself, Ranger Reyes, Camp hosts) if you see any campfires do not hesitate to reach out to us to let us know. Even if it ends up being a propane source which is allowed I prefer we check them out to be safe.

Anthony Miller
PARK RANGER SUPERVISOR

RivCoParks (Riverside County Regional Park and Open-Space District)
56375 Highway 74 Mountain Center, CA 92561 | (951) 529-5620 | FAX: (951) 955-0261
anmi…@rivco.org | www.RivCoParks.org

Follow RivCoParks: Facebook | Twitter | Upcoming Events

County of Riverside California

John Jacobs

Nov 18, 2019, 11:37:10 AMto

Anthony-

Sorry to hear about the family issues and being impacted by the recent vehicle break-ins. Hope this is settling out acceptably for you.

From the standpoint of fire safety, the location of those bbq fixtures present numerous concerns. Any kind of fire fixture such as this should have a concrete pad surround them, and all organic material around it removed down to mineral soil- though some of top grass has been removed, there is still quite a bit of duff in close proximity to them. These new bbq fixtures are located in very close proximity to the very dry, open meadow- by comparison, the bbq fixtures in the existing picnic area are at least 100′ from any kind of grass or organic groundcover. There are no ash disposal bins anywhere nearby (currently), so users may attempt to dispose of ashes inappropriately (such as in the brushy, unmaintained drainage adjacent to the meadow, bordering numerous residences).

Though fire restrictions are in place right now, violations of this have been observed in the campground by local residents. Supervision levels throughout the Park appear to be inconsistent, and not addressing problems that arise there- certainly inappropriate fire use in the Park is a great concern, when it isn’t identified and addressed.

Besides the fire risks these bbq fixtures present, they are also in close proximity to the backside of residential homes along Lower Pine Crest- this has potential to create more noise disturbance to those residents.

And it begs the question: are additional bbq fixtures like this *really* necessary? The main picnic area has quite a bit of existing fixtures- since the location of these new fixtures is about 100 yds from the parking area, users would have to manually carry all of their supplies a great distance to this location. From an ecologic standpoint, in order to make those bbq fixtures reasonably safe, it will require extensive removal of the natural meadow around those large pine trees, and result in extensive soil compaction due to foot traffic. This puts the meadow and the trees at greater risk, at a time when the ecology of the area is extremely drought stressed.

I appreciate your consideration to this, Anthony- the safety and quality of life issues that arise related to the Park are important issues to myself and many local residents.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

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kathystyles01

Hi John/Anthony:I took a walk today to see these and have to admit, it does seem like an odd placement for barbecues. I own a house right next to that trail and from my experience, the current day use area is very lightly used. Makes me wonder why the County would see the necessity of expanding it in any way, but if they really see a need for that, there’s still room to add to the existing picnic area without extending facilities down the trail, which as John noted, fire danger aside (and that is no small issue), would be very inconvenient for day users to lug all their supplies down to the new barbecues. I do appreciate the need for the park and neighbors to communicate with each other and be considerate of each other’s needs. Thank you John/Anthony for allowing us be part of this discussion.Kathy Styles

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John Jacobs

Jun 3, 2020, 1:57:26 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

Anthony-

As of last Monday, there are still several sites where evidence of human waste remains- there are a couple of large ‘deposits’ above campsites 16 & 17- I tied pink contractors flagging tape in the trees/bushes nearby to make them easier to find. There are also numerous bits of toilet paper on the hillside above campsite 30. It would be worth exploring the hillsides above the back end of the park (group sites area)- there were large concentrations of campers there during the time the bathrooms were closed- undoubtedly, more ‘evidence’ will be found there.

Last November, the issue of the placement of the BBQ’s in the meadow was raised, without any real response. Those BBQ’s remain in the same location, continuing to be highly questionable in terms of safety (i.e. fire risk) and the simple logistical question of accessibility to park visitors. (The ecologic impact of foot traffic in that meadow is very much worth considering as well.)

The BBQ’s sit surrounded by flammable grasses, with thick duff under them. A very modest effort was made to remove some of that duff last fall, however it is very thick, and any kind of similar fire-related fixture would have the organic material removed down to mineral soil in a large area surrounding the fixture. (From a practical standpoint, it is a good distance from the parking area to these BBQ’s- very difficult for users to haul their picnic items all the way over there.) Removing this organic material will create quite a bit of stress to the stand of large trees there due to loss of mulching & rapid soil drying, soil compaction, and erosion. There is a large number of picnic tables and BBQ’s (easily accessible to vehicles) in an area that is already well-prepared. Importantly, the BBQ’s in this existing area are much easier to monitor by Park Staff from the entry kiosk to the Park.

A recent walk-by of the meadow BBQ’s shows some recent use, including bits of burned downed wood. That kind of use is not what those BBQ’s are intended for, and is a good example of how they will be misused in a high-risk location. (See attached images.)

All in all, these meadow BBQ’s just don’t make any sense. Can you please explain the rationale for this? It is a clear, documented fact that at least 90% of wildland fires are related to humans, and recreational misuse of fires is very common. Why create an easy way to have a serious incident, when there are plenty of safer, already existing locations throughout the Park?

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

IdyCountyPark_060320

Miller, Anthony

Jun 5, 2020, 9:05:12 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

John,
I appreciated the flagging it helped to get some guidance where to continue picking up. My findings were minimal, however, so I sent staff to continue where I left off and they cleaned up what they could find as well. I am concerned from our observations that we aren’t finding all that you are reporting and I want to get it cleaned up so please let me know if that is the case.
As for the BBQs our primary concern is with fire clearance and maintaining that 10′ around (to bare mineral earth) and above. In my patrols and checking on guests out there last weekend I’d noticed as well there was needed maintenance to be performed this week. Staff worked on that yesterday and today so I will be following up on that tomorrow afternoon in the daylight to verify it meets standard.
I’d like to join you (while maintaining our social distancing and mask wearing) next time you walk the area to make sure we don’t miss anything and we have the same eyes on the problems at the same time. Please bring any concern to me directly as you find them in real time. If I am not available (my number is in my email signature) you can call the kiosk at 951-659-2656 and staff would be happy to hear you out and get us in touch so we can address the concerns directly.

RivCoParks (Riverside County Regional Park and Open-Space District)

Jun 7, 2020, 8:13:50 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, jennifer.gee@, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

Anthony-

While the fire risks of the location of those BBQ’s in the meadow could theoretically be mitigated, there are several other issues related to their location that should be considered:
*Proximity to nearby residents and increased ambient noise
*Poor access to users of the Park (at least 100 yds from nearest vehicles where supplies can be unloaded)
*Difficulty in monitoring fire use by Park personnel due to distant location
*An already existing, under-utilized picnic area with plenty of BBQ’s, picnic tables, access to bathrooms, and easy access for Park users (and easy to supervise by Park staff)

And in no small part, the ecologic impact of the BBQ’s that have been installed in the meadow is being ignored here. In 1994, a biologic survey was done of Idyllwild County Park (and vicinity) by then-Director of the UC James Reserve, Dr. Michael Hamilton (this survey is likely to be on file in County Park records- if you can’t find it, I’m happy to forward one on to you). Dr. Hamilton points out that this is a ‘wet meadow’ (a form of wetland) by ecologists, due to the movement of water through and around it, and the types of species that rely upon it.

Dr. Hamilton explained that the Idyllwild County Park ‘meadow’ (and surrounding area) is unique in it’s status in the San Jacinto Mountains amongst similar ecosystems, and there are numerous species of plants and animals in this area that are either currently considered Endangered by the State of California or the Federal Government, or are candidates for inclusion in those designations. (Designated wetland areas commonly receive protections from federal and state governments.) The meadow likely doesn’t have this federal designation because Idyllwild County Park has been part of the Riverside County Park system for a very long time. However, the County is required to follow regulatory guidelines of the California Environmental Quality Act in the event of planned developments, which mandates review by various state agencies such as California Fish & Game. It is also quite possible that US Army Corps of Engineers would have to make a wetlands determination, and for that would consult the US Fish & Wildlife Service, &/or the US EPA.

Anyone who has regularly visited Idyllwild County Park over the course of many years (or decades) who have carefully observed the condition of meadow can attest to the various ‘improvements’ that have occurred in and around it. In recent years, this has included the widening of the perimeter path on the NW side to a virtual dirt road, and a similar widening of the path that leads to the stand of trees along the SE side of the meadow (where these BBQ’s have been placed). More elaborate plans have included the building of pickleball courts, and discussions of projects such as a dog park. Numerous groups have requested to use it for various special events, and many/most have been turned down (presumably because of the desire to protect this natural resource).

These BBQ’s are the most recent example of these ‘improvements’- if there is a solid rationale for them, I’m quite open to hearing it. As the matter currently stands, however, the need for them does not appear to be evident, and there are numerous negative impacts that will be associated with them.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001

Idyllwild, California 92549

dawn.p

Jun 12, 2020, 5:22:56 PMto Neighborhood Watch Notifications, Anthony Miller, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, DaynaDustin and

Anthony
The press reports that Riverside County campgrounds opened up on June 12th. This neighborhood watch group and been reporting our concerns when Idyllwild County Park began staged openings over the past several weeks. Last weekend, the campground was completely full (no spacing between sites that I could discern). Please explain why Idyllwild County Park opened up prior to June 12th and why you told us that you were doing so within County COVID-19 guidelines.
Thank you,
Dawn Papaila

John Jacobs

Jun 15, 2020, 11:38:52 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, jennifer.gee@, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, DaynaAnthony-

This is the level of use of the existing picnic area around 3 pm on last Saturday, June 13:

This is the level of use around 1:20 pm on Sunday, June 14:

As you can plainly see, even at peak time on a busy weekend, the existing picnic area with at least 6-7 BBQ’s is barely in use- only one group was seen using the picnic area at this time.

Can you please provide an explanation as to why additional BBQ’s are needed in an ecologically sensitive area (such as those placed in the Meadow) that creates significant fire risk, placed in proximity to residences, and is very inconvenient for any Park user to access?

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

dawn.p

Jun 17, 2020, 1:29:57 PMto Neighborhood Watch Notifications, Anthony Miller, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

Dustin and Anthony,
Per my email below sent last week, please explain what authority you referenced to open the campground fully prior to June 12th. I am deeply concerned that this was a mistake. And I’m wondering if Rivco Parks is communicating honestly with the Neighborhood Watch group that borders Idyllwild campground.
Thank you,

Dawn Papaila

awesomethree2003

Jun 17, 2020, 2:23:48 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

Chuck and Linda Stroud of four generations of our family in this valley. You will find my references online. We find ourselves asking the same questions regarding current Idyllwild Park use. I am sure you will recall the Renaissance Fair fiasco. You maybe even recall Paul Black and “An Idyll Interrupted.” It is past time for answers! You are calling to question the character of many in Riv. Co. governance! As in, “By the close of business today.”

Miller, Anthony

Jun 17, 2020, 3:07:05 PMto, Neighborhood Watch Notifications, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

Hi Dawn,
Per working with State and County Guidelines we began operating as an RV park offering camping to self contained units under those guidelines approximately at the end of April/beginning of May. We took most of the month of April to prepare for that decision as per County Public Health deeming Recreational Vehicle Parks as “essential”.
During that time we did allow some tent camping so long as they were attached to a self-contained “group”. There was an occasional tent camper who were travelers with no where else to go and they were allowed the night and asked to leave in the morning on that infrequent circumstance. Despite our sites being more than six feet apart we are still limiting capacity and holding quite a few campsites to allow opportunity to social distance to create more room overall. Camping and reservations were not advertised or promoted at that time.
We operated under those guidelines for the month of May, until we received permission to open for tent camping starting June 1. Here is some press advertising similar campgrounds that chose to re-open at that time. Adjacent counties operated under similar circumstances with similar precautions (San Bernardino National Forest is .
https://www.latimes.com/travel/story/2020-05-21/forest-campgrounds-reopen-amid-coronavirus-pandemic

Some Southern California campgrounds reopen amid coronavirus – Los Angeles TimesAs Los Angeles Times assistant Travel editor, Mary Forgione writes and edits stories for the digital and print Travel section. She loves tips and stories about running, hiking and anything to do …www.latimes.com

As for the press release for June 12, it was a very broad announcement and I do believe there are still some campgrounds that are not yet open and there are some that are open with similar guidelines as we have (encouraging social distancing, no group camping, no large “events” and “gatherings”.)
Parks Management have been very involved in guidance with Riverside County Board of Supervisors and taking the re-opening process procedurally via guidance from Riverside County Board of Supervisors and the State level. Dustin can probably speak to more specifics on that but as field staff that is how it has been explained to myself and my staff.

Miller, Anthony

Jun 17, 2020, 3:26:26 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, jennifer.gee@, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

John,
The BBQ grill units were installed on existing fixtures to replace the ones that were damaged-they are not new and is part of the day use area. After conferring with Parks Management although they are near the meadow there aren’t any ecological or environmental impacts where they are located on the perimeter.
I have stressed the importance ofmaintaining the fire clearance to my staff and we do patrol the area when guests are in the park in addition to the campground areas.

John Jacobs

Jun 17, 2020, 8:01:18 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, jennifer.gee@, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

Anthony-

With all due respect, ‘Parks Management’ does not have a great history of managing this particular park in many regards- the fact that ‘Parks Management’ has ‘approved’ them doesn’t really make them any more acceptable- they were a bad decision in the first place.

Regardless of their prior history, the placement of those BBQ’s is still very odd, and the issues remain:
*Ecologically sensitive area (there is data to clearly illustrate this)
*Surrounded by dry grass, with significant fire hazard
*Significant distance from any parking area, making access difficult
*Proximity to resident homes
*Numerous existing BBQ’s that are barely used in a safer location, easier to access and monitor

Given these realities, what is the justification for these BBQ’s to be there at all (regardless of their prior history)?

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

John Jacobs

Jun 22, 2020, 1:39:51 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, jennifer.gee@, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna

Anthony-

Some kind of explanation would be appreciated for the placement of those BBQ’s (and the several picnic tables that have been placed there). Regardless of their prior history, their placement serves very little practical benefit to Park users, they increase fire danger, and having them there requires significant impact to the meadow. The rationale that they were simply replaced makes little sense, as these issues have always been at play.

Do these BBQ’s somehow fit in with a greater plan to increase use of the meadow? Are there plans to create vehicle access to that area?

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

awesomethree2003

Jun 22, 2020, 2:06:10 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

I said the other day that revised policies for use were established following the Festival Fiasco. Meadow is limited to day use, no organized events (as in don’t slam your heads on the sign) and attendees limited existing parking only. Other considerations were drafted with the inclusion our conservancy, Hamilton, Siva, Saubel and Staff Archaeologist for Soboba Band and finally Friends. You have yet to ask the recorded basis for the removal in the first place Chuck Stroud

John Jacobs

Jul 1, 2020, 7:26:06 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

Anthony-

Do these BBQ’s somehow fit in with a greater plan to increase use of the meadow? Are there plans to create vehicle access to that area?

_________________________________________Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch888.522.9001Idyllwild, California 92549
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awesomethree2003

Jul 1, 2020, 11:29:53 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

The intuition of Park neighbors, many with a multi-generational presence should have been sufficient, and yet with the persistence shown to date, our anxiety remains. Looking to me like another Morrison and Forester, Western Environmental Law Center issue. Park policies were revised and redrafted following efforts of promoters to turn the entire area into a carnival zone. Move those records and press accounts before agencies like this. Are they hoping you will give up? Chuck Stroud

Miller, Anthony

Jul 1, 2020, 11:44:44 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Whitaker, Dayna, McLain, Dustin

Good afternoon,
There are no plans to expand our footprint farther into the meadow; The BBQ’s have been replaced and tables set out for guests’ enjoyment (and increase opportunities to social distance) and proper efforts have been made to mitigate the fire concerns both in maintaining the surrounding landscape and through patrol and keeping eyes on them so we can observe if they become problematic.

John Jacobs

Jul 7, 2020, 10:31:01 AM (12 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, DMcLain@, dwhitaker@, jennifer.gee@john

Anthony-

Here is the level of use the existing picnic area had over the busy 4th of July holiday weekend.

Friday, July 3, ~1:20 pm:

Saturday, July 4, ~3 pm:

Sunday, July 5, ~1:45 pm

All of these images (in addition to those provided on the weekend of June 13-14) clearly demonstrate that the existing picnic area is more than adequate to serve current levels of use by visitors, with plenty of room to accommodate future increases. Adding additional BBQ’s and picnic tables in an area that has higher fire risk, is more difficult to monitor by park staff, is more disruptive to nearby residents, and has significant ecologic impact on the meadow area makes very little sense.

Anthony, please reply with some kind of rationale for the replacement of those meadow BBQ’s.
_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

Joe Chiosso

Jul 7, 2020, 12:03:46 PM (12 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

I believe with the small parking lot and undersize bathrooms and a big factor is the lack of staff that they shouldn’t add more but try and work with what they have.

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Joe Chiosso

Jul 7, 2020, 12:21:29 PM (12 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com

If better training is needed for the staff or better management that should be done first before adding more hazards.

John Jacobs

Jul 16, 2020, 11:46:48 AM (3 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, DMcLain@, dwhitaker@, jennifer.gee@

Anthony-

Here is the level of use of the existing picnic area around 1:30 pm, last Sunday, July 12:

Once again, you can see that this existing picnic area remains well below it’s maximum capacity.

It is disappointing that you have not been able to share any kind of rationale for re-installing the BBQ’s in a meadow that is ecologically sensitive, when there is no apparent practical reason to do so, and they only increase fire risks. (Not to mention that Park user access to them is difficult at best, and there are no trashcans anywhere near them.) This poses an unnecessary risk to local residents, and has a negative impact on a sensitive environmental area.

If there is a strong rationale for this, your perspective as the Supervising Ranger of this Park (or from any of the County Parks Executive Team) would be appreciated.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

Miller, Anthony

<AnMiller@rivco.org>Jul 16, 2020, 1:04:47 PM (3 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@

Hi John,
The BBQs are installed in our picnic are and were reinstalled to give people room to spread out and enjoy the perimeter of the meadow. Many choose to stay close to the parking lot but each weekend a family or two choose to go enjoy the shade and properly pack in/out belongings and trash. Our primary concern is maintaining the fire clearances throughout and staff (and Ranger) can see levels of use out there.
Fire clearances are maintained per the Cal-Fire standard. As far as ecological concerns, especially considering the level of use you are pointing out ultimately the overall impact is minimal given the very small size of the area we are discussing and its location on the perimeter of the meadow in between the front day use area and trail access. .
I do see benefits in taking care of the perimeter of the meadow across from the trail giving a fire break and allowing for the placement of our interpretive signage to educate the public why we are protecting the meadow and not allowing significant events and use of the area. Having a clear trail and aiming our efforts at eduction helps keep wandering public from trampling or disturbing the meadow as well. The shade is also a spot for hikers returning from the hillside and summit trails to rest on a bench in a shady area before heading back up towards Nature Center.
Plans for increased use of meadow remain at our current standard and we are not increasing scope of use beyond hiking and picnicking.

John Jacobs

Jul 17, 2020, 10:19:18 AM (2 days ago) to pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@

Anthony-

Thank you for the response.

When each of those photos were obtained of the existing picnic areas during numerous busy summer mid-day weekends, there were no users observed at tables in the meadow (that were recently placed there).

The rationale that since they receive little use they create minimal ecologic impact is oddly faulty. Developing that area in that way simply invites impacts, which makes no sense since the existing area is more than adequately serving the need. As a general principle of land preservation, concentration of impact is a better strategy than spreading it out over large areas. It is good to hear that there are no plans to increase the scope of use of that meadow area.

There are many, many locations where any hiker who came down from the Nature Center (via the Hillside or Summit trails) can find a shaded resting place before returning. If having such a rest spot is desirable, why not place a simple bench (such as is found in several other locations around the Park) adjacent to the meadow, where users can observe the meadow (but doesn’t encourage large groups, or the risk of fire)?

The existing picnic area is completely covered in shade. It makes little sense that any user would walk through the existing, shady picnic area, walk 100 yds through open sun, carrying coolers, picnic & BBQ supplies to a much smaller picnic area that has no access to water, no trashcans, and is a great distance from bathrooms.

At the risk of suggesting more impact to that meadow area, the area around those BBQ’s are far from being fire-safe. The topmost grasses were removed, but the rhizome mat of roots is deep and mostly still intact. Grass is already beginning to grow around them.

Those meadow BBQ’s were removed many years ago- have you researched as to why they were removed? It would not seem surprising if the rationale for removal was related to their fire risk, ecologic impact, inaccessibility, etc.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
888.522.9001
Idyllwild, California 92549

kissmccann

Jul 17, 2020, 2:31:46 PM

Keep after them…..thanks
Mike McCann
Safe Trip,

John Jacobs

Aug 6, 2020, 9:48:11 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, Miller, Anthony, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Anthony-

It doesn’t appear as though a direct answer will be forthcoming about the BBQ’s that have been installed in the meadow, in spite of the fire risk they pose, and the ecologic impact they create…all for some fixtures that are very difficult for Park users to access (as described and documented below).

Meanwhile, it seems the Park is seeing unusually heavy use this year- in year’s past, mid-weeks would find the Park largely empty. This summer, however, the Park seems to be operating nearly half full during mid-week, and virtually full over the weekends. That’s a lot of impact, noise, and increased fire risks…with very little supervision. In recent regular walks around the Park, I don’t recall seeing any Park personnel anywhere in the Park- the entry kiosk is *always* empty. In year’s past, there has been a Camp Host present to provide some level of supervision to the Park while ‘official’ personnel are not present- this doesn’t seem to be happening any longer.

Adequate supervision is central to managing the risks and impacts of large numbers of Park users- can you please provide an update as to the apparent low levels of supervision currently taking place in the Park?

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org

Miller, Anthony

Aug 7, 2020, 8:36:15 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@….

John,

Comparing our usage this year vs. last year I found the following over the 6 week period starting the week before July 4 to approximately 1^st week of August:

	2019	2020
Total Nights Reserved Sun-Thu	610	853
Total Nights Reserved Fri-Sat	933	715
Occupancy % Sun-Thu	34%	47.4%
Occupancy % Fri-Sat	86.4%	66.2%

Prior to COVID I added a staff member to the rotation of Idyllwild Regional Park (a Park Attendant) in addition to the Ranger Position and Maintenance Worker position, which is different this year from recent years when we ran with 2 paid staff positions. We prioritize the heaviest use periods (and highest potential for abuse) in our scheduling and do patrol and prioritize cleaning mid-week vs. staffing the kiosk 24/7. I am on duty on the weekends until all is quiet and calm at night and keep busy throughout the park. While we have seen a modest increase in our mid-week traffic, on weekends our efforts to keep traffic reasonable with the increased demand for camping this summer have been quite fruitful.

Recruiting for camp hosts has been challenging with COVID however we do have one couple cleared and ready to start 8-30-2020 as well as some interviews lined up for the other position. I am excited to begin working with them.

We are always on the lookout for knuckleheads and are available to handle if anyone sees anything objectionable – we will address when you let us know. If there is an emergency, call 9-1-1. I speak with many of our regular walkers while I’m out and about and I always ask how things are going and try to get a feel for what the community is seeing on their walks through the park when staff are off duty and/or assigned tasks elsewhere in the park.

As for the BBQs, I have inquired about the ecological impacts as you have suggested and it has been determined that no direct or indirect impacts currently exist. If you wish to have further oversight regarding ecological impacts please feel free to contact the State (California Department of Fish and Wildlife) and Federal Wildlife (United States Fish and Wildlife Service) Agencies.

furpeople54

Aug 7, 2020, 8:47:31 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Need another dumpster in the front parking lot. This is what it looks like every Sunday.

Reverence for all Life

Miller, Anthony

Aug 7, 2020, 8:58:21 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

We will upgrade it to a 4yard dumpster this week. That’s been bugging me as well. Thank you!

furpeople54

Aug 7, 2020, 9:05:36 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@….

Great!

Reverence for all Life

John Jacobs

Aug 11, 2020, 10:13:13 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Anthony-

Those are interesting statistical numbers on Park use over the past two years- It’s particularly noteworthy that mid-week use has increased, while week-end use has decreased since last year. The overflowing dumpsters at the end of each weekend seem to attest to much higher use.

You mentioned ‘making inquiries’ related to the ecologic impacts of the meadow BBQ’s- what agency did you inquire with? According to Mike Hamilton’s emails from 2000, this meadow is likely considered an ecologic wetland, which means “…the County does have to follow regulatory guidelines of the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA)…which mandates review by various state agencies such as Cal Fish and Game. In addition, because the surface waters of the US are involved, it is quite possible that the US Army Corps of Engineers would have to make a wetlands determination, and for that would consult the US Fish and Wildlife Service or the US EPA.”

His comments were in reference to developments of the meadow that were being considered at that time- while these BBQ’s are not of the same scale, they clearly have impacts on this ecology in the form of human traffic and soil compaction. It would seem likely that an official, final determination of the status of this meadow would be appropriate before these BBQ’s (or any other similar or more extensive developments) would be installed.

The Biologic Survey of the Meadow can be found here: https://pinecrestwatch.org/issues/
Setting aside the unsettled question of the ecologic impacts, there are some very clear realities here: these BBQ’s carry with them increased fire risks because of their proximity to abundant dry grasses…and they are very difficult to access by Park users- even under current levels of Park use, the existing BBQ’s in the picnic area are more than sufficient for current use levels, as demonstrated by repeated photographs during peak usage times.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org

Joe Chiosso

Aug 12, 2020, 5:29:16 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Funny that everyone else on the hill is well aware that we have more visitors and have adjusted to dealing with that, seems to always be an excuse why the county park cant see what everyone already has.

davahunt

Aug 12, 2020, 9:26:18 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, C.Washington@rcbos.org, Washington, Chuck

I, for one, have NOT adjusted to the massive amounts of tourists invading our community while ignoring the Governor’s STAY AT HOME ORDER! Riverside County Administration is encouraging this by keeping the County Park open and they will probably lose State funding because of it, as well as prolong the effective opening of our economy by helping to spread the COVID virus instead of helping to contain and reduce it. This is clearly demonstrated by the increase in local cases several weeks after the 4th of July weekend. I am sorry to say that RIVCO continues to ignore the concerns of our community and only increases the negative views that Idyllwild has toward the County Park. I am reasonably sure that EVERY camper in the park is in defiance of the STAY AT HOME ORDER! The short-sighted plan of bringing in minimal funds from camping fees will have a long-term effect on the entire economy of Riverside County! VERY SAD INDEED 🙁

John Jacobs

Aug 13, 2020, 9:16:51 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Anthony-

These bits of soiled toilet paper and dog waste bags have been recently observed along the commonly used trails in the Park. Most of them have remained there for weeks, and are in proximity to water drainages:

It would seem that the limited resources that the Park has would be far better utilized in focusing on the regular, persistent impacts related to increased user numbers, rather than installing BBQ’s in an ecologically questionable location that increases fire hazards….and not insignificantly, has no apparent need given the minimal use of the existing picnic BBQ’s.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org

John Jacobs

Aug 24, 2020, 10:37:18 AMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

Anthony-

A walk around the Park this morning encountered the usual user trash items (water bottles, empty juice bags, orange peels, candy wrappers, beer bottles, etc.), in addition to numerous soiled toilet paper and filled dog waste bags. These sites are in addition to those that were posted about on August 13:

(This is adjacent to the meadow BBQ’s, where there are no trash cans.)

Ironically, it appears the dog waste bags found in these various locations are the ones that are supplied by the Park.

Can you comment on how Park resources are allocated to deal with this kind of regular, persistent user impact? Besides being unsightly, almost all of the soiled toilet paper and dog waste (both bagged and unbagged) were found in very close proximity to waterways- this clearly impacts water quality.

Perhaps more disturbingly, this evidence of illegal, inappropriate fires was also found below campsites 11-12:

The fire scarred rocks are clear evidence of a fire ring that was created by a Park user. The partially burned log (too green to completely burn) was obviously obtained from the area, and the manner of burning suggests it was moved through a fire ring progressively, which means that a smouldering portion of it would likely be outside of any fire ring.

This kind of activity is greatly concerning to local residents (and Idyllwild, as a whole). It seems quite clear that the issue of Park supervision and maintenance of impacts continues to be a problem. Your comments on this would be appreciated.

_________________________________
John Jacobs
Pine Crest – Riverside County Playground Rd. Neighborhood Watch
Idyllwild, California 92549
888-522-9001
www.pinecrestwatch.org

Miller, Anthony

Sep 4, 2020, 4:46:12 PMto pc-rcpr-neighborhood-watch-info@googlegroups.com, McLain, Dustin, Whitaker, Dayna, jennifer.gee@…

John,
I appreciate you getting the information over to me. By the photos I was able to determine that was on the lower trail leading below site 6 along the creek bed and took time (and had staff) do some litter picking down there. I agree it should be done regularly. I have discussed the issue with the team and we will be making more frequent rounds of those problem areas. I also discussed with our new camp hosts who started this week and are eager to help the park and get to know the community as well.